Legislature(1997 - 1998)
05/01/1998 03:40 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE
May 1, 1998
3:40 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Robin Taylor, Chairman
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice-Chairman
Senator Mike Miller
Senator Sean Parnell
Senator Johnny Ellis
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 312
"An Act relating to animals, to food, to pest control, and to the
Alaska Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act; and providing for an effective
date."
- MOVED SB 312 OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 355
"An Act relating to the provision of electric utility service."
- HEARD AND HELD
CS FOR HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 34(L&C) am
Establishing a Joint Committee on Electric Utility Restructuring.
- MOVED CSHCR 34(L&C) am OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 138
"An Act relating to regulation of alcoholic beverages; relating to
alcoholic beverage licenses and to regulation of alcoholic beverage
licensees; relating to liability of a person who provides alcoholic
beverages; and providing for an effective date."
- MOVED CSSB 138(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 406(FIN) am(efd fld)
"An Act authorizing the Board of Fisheries and the Board of Game to
identify fish and game that are taken for subsistence and to
identify subsistence and nonsubsistence areas; relating to the
establishment of preferences for and to regulation of subsistence
fishing and hunting; relating to advisory committees."
- HEARD AND HELD
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS: Alcoholic Beverage Control Board
Judicial Conduct
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 312 - See Labor and Commerce minutes dated 3/10/98 and 4/7/98.
SB 355 - See Labor and Commerce Committee minutes dated 4/21/98.
HCR 34 - No previous action to record.
SB 138 - No previous action to record.
HB 406 - See Judiciary minutes dated 4/25/98.
WITNESS REGISTER
Ms. Beth Hagevig
Staff to Senator Gary Wilken
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented SB 312
Ms. Janice Adair
Director, Enviornmental Health
Department of Enviornmental Conservation
555 Cordova Street
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 312
Mr. Eric Yula
Executive Director
Alaska Rural Electric Cooperative Association
703 West Tudor Road
Anchorage, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34
Mr. Don Edwards
Chugach Electric
5601 Minnesota Drive
Anchorage, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 355
Mr. Dave Carlson
City of Petersburg
P.O. Box 1232
Petersburg, AK 99833
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34
Mr. Rick Eckert
Homer Electric
3977 Lake Street
Homer, AK 99603
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34
Mr. Thomas Stahr
167 W. Cityview
Homer, AK 99603
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34
Mr. Charles Walls
President
Alaska Village Electric Cooperative
4831 Eagle Street
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34
Ms. MaryAnn Pease
Aurora Power
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 355
Ms. Shirley Armstrong
Staff to the House Labor and Commerce Committee
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HCR 34
Ms. Myra Kohler
General Manager
Anchorage Municipal Light and Power
1200 East 1st Avenue
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HCR 34
Mr. Robert Wilkinson
Copper Vallley Electric Association
P.O. Box 45
Glenallen, AK 99588
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SB 355, supported HCR 34
Mr. Ron Defore
Americans For Responsible Alcohol Access
Emergency Nurses Association
Washington, D.C.
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Mr. J. Ross Runfola
Special Counsel
New York State Attorney
New York, NY
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Ms. Jan Wrentmore
Owner
Red Onion Saloon
Skagway, AK 99840
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Mr. Chris Anderson
Owner
Glacier Brew House
Anchorage, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Mr. Doug Griffin
Alcoholic Beverage Control Board
550 West 7th #350
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 138
Mr. Bob Bailey
Alaska Distributors
P.O. Box 91598
Anchorage, AK 99515
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SB 138
Mr. Richard Sassara
Railway Brewing Company
1964 Loussac
Anchorage, AK 99517
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Mr. Gary Klopfer
Owner
Snow Goose Restaurant
717 West 3rd
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Ms. Ann Wilkas
Moose's Tooth
3400 Old Seward Highway
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Mr. Don Grasse
K&L Distributors
4771 Southpark Bluff
Anchorage, AK 99518
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on SB 138
Mr. Jim Jansen
President
Lynden Companies
Alaskans Together
1029 West 3rd
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
Mr. Dick Bishop
Vice President
Alaska Outdoor Council
Anchorage, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
Mr. Donald Westlund
P.O. Box 871
Ward Cove, AK 99928
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
Mr. Pete Amundson
918 Jackson Street
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
Ms. Kay Andrew
P.O. Box 7211
Ketchikan, AK 99901
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
Mr. Robert Bosworth
Deputy Commissioner
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau, AK 99802-5526
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
Mr. Steve White
Assistant District Attorney
Department of Law
P.O. Box 110300
Juneau, AK 99811-0300
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 406
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 98-36, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN ROBIN TAYLOR called the Judiciary Committee meeting to
order at 3:40 p.m. and apologized for the delay.
MS. BETH HAGEVIG, staff to Senator Wilken presented SB 312. MS.
HAGEVIG said this bill consolidates existing requirements for food
production and service and clears up obsolete and contradictory
provisions now existing in statute. MS. HAGEVIG explained that SB
312 will provide for more efficient administration of the food laws
in Alaska.
SENATOR ELLIS asked if the bill had any connection to food
irradiation and MS. HAGEVIG answered it did not.
MS. JANICE ADAIR, Director of Environmental Health for the
Department of Environmental Conservation, reiterated the comments
of MS. HAGEVIG and expressed that the Department supports the bill.
Number 075
SENATOR MILLER moved SB 312 out of committee with individual
recommendations. Without objection, the bill was moved.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced HCR 34 and SB 355 as the next order of
business.
SB 355 - COMPETITIVE RETAIL SALES ELEC. POWER
CSCR 34(L&C) - JT COM ON ELEC UTILITY RESTRUCTURING
MR. ERIC YULA, Executive Director of the Alaska Rural Electric
Cooperative Association, testified to his organizations strong
support for HCR 34. MR. YULA expressed opposition to SB 355,
primarily because of his preference for the process set forth in
HCR 34. MR. YULA noted that there are several other pieces of
legislation dealing with deregulation pending in this Legislature
and remarked they might all be better rolled into the subcommittee
study proposed in HCR 34.
Number 162
MR. YULA explained that Alaska is in a unique position in relation
to the complex issue of deregulation and encouraged the passage of
HCR 34.
Number 171
MR. DON EDWARDS, representing Chugach Electric, testified that SB
355 was a simple bill, intended only to apply to large, dense
systems such as Chugach and the ML&P system. He suggested the bill
might be amended to exclude other systems that could accidentally
be included. MR. EDWARDS said the bill would introduce competition
to larger systems, but would have no impact outside of Anchorage.
Number 200
MR. EDWARDS testified that poll results have shown customer support
for competition and cited a study by the Brookings Institute which
concluded that with competition, customers benefit from better
service and reliability. MR. EDWARDS stated that other utilities
oppose choice, but repeated that the legislation will not apply to
anyone outside Anchorage.
Number 285
MR. EDWARDS concluded his testimony by urging the committee to move
SB 355.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR announced the Confirmation Hearing of MS. TONI
JACKSON to the Alcohol Control Board would be taken up at this
time. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR noted the committee had MS. JACKSON'S resume.
SENATOR MILLER moved that MS. JACKSON'S name be forwarded to the
full body. Without objection, it was so ordered.
Number 335
MR. DAVE CARLSON, past mayor of Petersburg, testified his strong
support for HCR 34 and strong opposition to SB 355. He requested
careful consideration of restructuring and deregulation, as it is
a complex issue.
Number 369
MR. RICK EKHERT, manager of finance for Homer Electric, spoke from
Homer, opposing SB 355 and supporting HCR 34.
MR. THOMAS STAR, a ratepayer from Homer, also opposed SB 355 and
supported HCR 34, saying SB 355 could result in wage increases by
predatory utilities.
MR. WALTER SAP, President of the Board of Directors of the Kodiak
Electric Association, testified in support of HCR 34 and in
opposition to SB 355. MR. SAP stated that the issue is complex and
is best dealt with through the body that would be established under
HCR 34.
Number 411
MR. CHARLES WALLS, President of the Alaska Village Electric
Cooperative, suggested that deregulation is not something to rush
into. He stated support for HCR 34 and opposed SB 355.
MS. MARY ANN PEASE, representing Aurora Power, supported SB 355,
citing a need for customer choice and the increased efficiency
competition brings. MS. PEASE remarked that the current system has
a fundamental flaw: no incentive to be cost efficient. CHAIRMAN
TAYLOR asked MS. PEASE if she supported the amendment referred to
and MS. PEASE replied she does.
Number 463
MS. SHIRLEY ARMSTRONG, Staff to the House Labor and Commerce
Committee, reported that the Labor and Commerce Committee has
worked on this issue for many years and supports HCR 34.
MS. MYRA KOHLER, General Manager of Anchorage Municipal Light and
Power, stated that retail competition in this arena would be
unprecedented. She reiterated the idea that this is a hugely
complex issue that includes concerns over liability, standards and
reliability, universal costs and transmission. MS. KOHLER suggested
that these issues should all be decided before deregulation takes
place.
MR. ROBERT WILKINSON, representing the Copper Valley Electric
Association, opposed SB 355 and urged the committee's support of
HCR 34.
Number 556
SENATOR MILLER moved HCR 34 out of committee with individual
recommendations. Without objection, it was so ordered.
SENATOR PEARCE suggested that the Energy Council has been studying
deregulation and gas restructuring for a number of years and has a
great deal of knowledge that might be put to use when enacting HCR
34.
Number 575
SB 138 - REGULATION OF ALCOHOL
MR. RON DEFORE, representing the Americans for Responsible Alcohol
Access and the Emergency Nurses Associations, expressed concern
about toll free alcohol sales over the Internet.
TAPE 98-36 SIDE B
Number 001
MR. DEFORE said these Internet sales represent a rapidly expanding
underground economy that should be prevented. MR. DEFORE remarked
that other states have criminalized this type of sale of alcoholic
beverages and suggested Alaska should join them. MR. DEFORE
clarified that not only fine wines are available over the Internet,
but cheap beer and hard liquor are also available and can be
delivered overnight.
MR. DEFORE did not oppose consumer access to these products, if
underage purchase can be controlled. He said there is a process
under development now where people could order their favorite
products and have them delivered to a local retailer, through a
national locator system.
SENATOR PEARCE asked if the language before them would affect
auction sales of wine and spirits. MR. DEFORE replied he could not
comment specifically on that, but reiterated that he opposed any
direct shipment of alcohol to a person's doorstep, regardless of
the manner of purchase.
MR. J. ROSS RANFOLO, Special Counsel to the New York State Attorney
General, testified in support of the amendment to SB 138, also due
to the possibility of underage purchase and consumption of alcohol.
Number 500
MR. RANFOLO reported to the committee the results of an
investigation of some Internet companies: 14 out of 14 illegal
liquor sales and shipments to underage buyers without any type of
age verification. MR. RANFOLO added that some deliveries of alcohol
were also made to dry towns, subverting the will of the local
electorate. He cited greed and a desire to escape state tax as the
motive behind much Internet alcohol marketing. MR. RANFOLO
concluded by urging the adoption of the amendment.
MS. JAN WRENTMORE, owner of the Red Onion Saloon in Skagway,
supported the amendment.
MR. CHRIS ANDERSON, co-owner of the Glacier Brew House in
Anchorage, said the failure of this bill's passage has been a real
problem and is hampering the growth of his business. MR. ANDERSON
also expressed concern about losing his ability to provide
entertainment to his patrons and to sell "growlers" - half gallon
bottles of beer he believes his establishment sells responsibly.
MR. ANDERSON supported passage of the bill, with the proposed
amendments and the inclusion of the ability to sell growlers.
SENATOR PEARCE noted that the original version of the bill was
introduced at the request of the Alcohol Beverage Control Board.
MR. ANDERSON commented that the bill represented a reasonable
consensus achieved between the board and industry representatives.
SENATOR PEARCE asked what section precluded the sale of growlers
and MR. ANDERSON pointed out page three, section four, line 21.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the Glacier Brewpub holds a retail licence
and MR. ANDERSON replied he did not. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR concluded that
may be the problem. He surmised this was a question of competition
brought up by the unique situation and licenses of brewpubs.
Number 255
SENATOR ELLIS moved Amendment #1, labeled E-3. There was an
objection from SENATOR PEARCE who explained the amendment also
prohibited Internet sale and auction sales as well. SENATOR PEARCE
said there was no concern about these issues from Alaska Law
enforcement. SENATOR ELLIS suggested the committee might modify the
amendment to alleviate SENATOR PEARCE's concern and prevent the
possibility of underage sale. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR suggested the
committee take testimony from the ABC Board to clarify the issue.
MR. DOUG GRIFFIN, representing the ABC Board, said the amendment
before them was not submitted by the Board. MR. GRIFFIN reviewed SB
138, identifying sections 1, 2, 3, 8, 10, 11, 13 and 16 as
housekeeping measures designed to deal with limited liability
companies (LLC).
Number 150
MR. GRIFFIN stated that concerns about bootlegger liability have
already been addressed in a bill passed in 1997 and section 15 of
the bill is redundant and may be removed. MR. GRIFFIN remarked that
the bill does provide for limited delivery of gift baskets
containing alcohol by package stores.
Number 121
MR. BOB BAILEY from Alaska Distributors testified from Anchorage in
support of SB 138, especially the provision prohibiting direct
shipping. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if this amendment was offered on
MR. BAILEY's behalf and MR. BAILEY replied it was a consensus among
wholesalers, retailers and concerned citizens. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR
asked if, under this provision, SENATOR PEARCE would be able to
order products not available in state and have them shipped to her.
MR. BAILEY stated the amendment as written is a complete ban on
shipping but he feels the positive effects of the amendment
outweigh the negative effects.
Number 95
MR. RICHARD SASSARU, testified from Anchorage on behalf of Railway
Brewery Company in favor of SB 138 generally but specifically
opposed the limitation on the number of gallons that a brewpub can
produce, the elimination of growlers, and the prohibition on
entertainment. MR. SASSARU concluded by changing his support of the
bill to opposition, saying he preferred the status quo until these
problems could be worked out.
MR. GARY KLOPFER, owner of the Snow Goose Restaurant, apologized to
all parties involved, saying he and his partner started the brewpub
fracas in the first place.
TAPE 98-37, SIDE A
Number 001
MR. KLOPFER commented that he spent more than two million dollars
on his establishment and although he runs a pub, more than 75% of
his sales are food. He feels people are biased against brewpubs and
if the clause prohibiting entertainment was passed in SB 138, his
establishment would no longer be able to be host to the Fur
Rendezvous "Melodrama." MR. KLOPFER also repeated the idea that
growlers are a very valuable marketing tool. He concluded that he
did not support the bill in its present form.
MS. ANN WILKAS, representing the Moose's Tooth Brewing Company and
the Moose's Tooth Pub and Pizzeria opposed SB 138 and the
amendments proposed. MS. WILKAS agreed with previous testimony from
Anchorage breweries saying this bill needs work. MS. WILKAS
recommended the committee not pass SB 138.
Number 165
MR. DON GRASSE, General Manager of KML Distributors, clarified that
the proposed amendment would not allow for catalog or auction sales
of fine wines. MR. GRASSE recognized this as a problem.
SENATOR ELLIS interjected that his primary concern was shipment of
alcoholic beverages to underage people. SENATOR ELLIS added he
would be happy to make conceptual changes to the Amendment to
accommodate SENATOR PEARCE's ideas. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR affirmed that
it is already illegal to sell, deliver or convey alcohol to minors
and the problem exists with enforcement.
Number 240
SENATOR ELLIS withdrew Amendment #1.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR declared Amendment #2 would not be offered.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR brought up Amendment #3, which would change the
number of dispensary licenses in a community by limiting the award
of new licences to facilities with 35 rooms. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked
Doug Griffin for comments on this amendment. MR. GRIFFIN relied
that the board had no official position on this issue but is
sensitive to the intent behind it.
SENATOR PEARCE offered Amendment #3. Without objection, the
amendment was adopted.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR addressed Amendment #4 as the next order of
business.
Number 350
SENATOR ELLIS explained that this amendment (#4) is, in the advice
of the drafter, the cleanest way to extend the life of existing
brewpubs by canceling the old brewpub arrangement and instituting
a new one. SENATOR ELLIS stated that amendment #4 is the only way
the Moose's Tooth can stay in business. MR. GRIFFIN added that the
Moose's Tooth is in a unique situation and the board's proposal
does not allow for them.
MR. GRIFFIN remarked that the board was uncomfortable with broad
language that grandfathers in existing businesses. He said as the
brewpub situation exists, brewpubs (restaurant/breweries) can
bottle and sell their beer via wholesalers, but they are limited to
75,000 gallons unless they receive permission from the board to
exceed that cap.
Number 494
SENATOR ELLIS moved Amendment #4 and without objection, the
amendment was adopted.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR offered Amendment #1 and on a roll call vote of
three yeas and two nays the amendment was adopted.
SENATOR ELLIS proposed a conceptual amendment (Amendment #5) to
allow the continuation of the sale of growlers. Without objection,
it was so ordered.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR also proposed (Amendment #6) to delete all of
section 15, which has been made redundant by a bill passed by
Representative Ivan Ivan in 1997. Without objection, Amendment #6
was adopted.
SENATOR ELLIS moved SB 138 out of committee with individual
recommendations. Without objection, it was so ordered.
HB 406 - SUBSISTENCE USES OF FISH AND GAME
MR. JIM JANSEN, President of the Lynden Companies and representing
Alaskans Together, spoke in support of doing whatever necessary to
avert a federal takeover. MR. JANSEN voiced his opinion that we
have one opportunity to keep the feds out and we need to take it.
MR. JANSEN declared a federal takeover would negatively affect all
resource-based industries in the state and federal management of
fish and game would be unacceptable.
TAPE 98-37, SIDE B
Number 560
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR questioned MR. JANSEN about his testimony, asking
what benefit would be derived from passing a constitutional
amendment to comply with the federal law. MR. JANSEN said state
management would allow Alaskans to keep their concerns and problems
within the state.
MR. DICK BISHOP, representing the Alaska Outdoor Council, testified
to his organization's support of the concepts within HB 406. MR.
BISHOP suggested that with some amendments, the bill could improve
management of subsistence uses of fish and game under state law.
MR. BISHOP indicated relating an individual priority to the
reliance on food is the right way to go. He said the Outdoor
Council has maintained that a subsistence priority in law is not
necessary to properly provide for subsistence uses, but if a
priority is to remain in law, it should be based on "how you live,
not where you live."
MR. BISHOP agreed that the ability to take fish and game for food
is a basic human right, as enunciated by the Alaska Native
subsistence summit and the Republican Party. MR. BISHOP said the
Alaska Supreme Court had also validated this idea in their decision
that said the common use of fish and game to meet the basic
necessities of life is a "highly important interest, running to
each person in the state." MR. BISHOP asked how anyone can advocate
discrimination against others if we all agree that subsistence is
a basic human right. He recounted testimony on the House floor by
members who pointed out that the Alaska Constitution protects
against discrimination. He quoted Representative Ethan Berkowitz
who spoke of the sanctity of the Constitution and its moral
imperative to treat all Alaskans as Alaskans. MR. BISHOP also
recalled members extolling the virtue of maintaining Alaska's
sovereignty.
MR. BISHOP said HB 406 avoids moral and civil rights travesties by
preserving the emphasis on the importance of Alaskans to maintain
the ability to harvest fish and game regardless of where they live.
He suggested this value is paramount and cuts across cultural,
ethnic, racial and geographic lines.
MR. BISHOP said the criticism that HB 406 does not comply with
ANILCA is "just so much rhetoric." MR. BISHOP stated ANILCA is not
a standard to aspire to; he said it institutionalizes
discrimination among Alaskans, compromises sound fish and game
management and abrogates the state's rights. MR. BISHOP explained
that conforming to ANILCA, especially as it was amended last Fall,
would leave the state without a legal leg to stand on in defending
its rights afforded by statehood.
MR. BISHOP argued the priority demanded by ANILCA is not triggered
by a shortage and would be there all the time, mandating the
elimination of other uses should it be necessary to accommodate
customary and traditional subsistence uses. MR. BISHOP also
reported that the need for food is not the standard in ANILCA, and
the sale and barter of food taken for subsistence is protected in
ANILCA. If the state agrees to ANILCA, the federal courts will
enforce their interpretation of that law and the manner in which
the state administers it. This would not amount to the state
regaining management, according to MR. BISHOP. MR. BISHOP concluded
that the Outdoor Council recommends that the legislature stick to
the principles in HB 406, consider some refinements to the bill,
and go on to seek the necessary changes to ANILCA, where the real
problem lies.
SENATOR WARD asked MR. BISHOP what he thinks will happen if the
state does not change its Constitution. MR. BISHOP replied that
will depend on what the legislature does between now and then and
how the Congressional delegation and the Secretary of the Interior
respond to it. MR. BISHOP added if we put forward a good bill, we
will have a good argument toward changes in ANILCA. MR. BISHOP said
if nothing changes, he has no doubt the feds will begin propagating
their own regulations on fish and game. MR. BISHOP also answered
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR's question about the difference between state or
federal management under ANILCA. He said there really is no
difference and he would characterize it as "shot or hung." Under
federal management, we will have a "zip code rural priority"
statewide. This will be the same under the state plan, according to
MR. BISHOP. He went on to illustrate how state and federal
management will amount to essentially the same thing. He added that
federal court enforcement will be the last word in all these cases.
MR. BISHOP said a federal takeover will leave us with unresolved
legal questions surrounding fish and game management and the end of
Alaska's constitutional protection of common use and equal access
to fish and game uses. MR. BISHOP said the state would also cede
any future arguments on these issues.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR commented that he has been asking these same
questions for years and a big part of his frustration is the idea
people have that the state will be able to retain some sort of
management rights and make certain amendments to ANILCA. CHAIRMAN
TAYLOR said his reading of the bill shows we won't be able to do
anything.
SENATOR WARD said this is a very important issue to him and he is
bothered by how some people within the media and government treat
it. He reiterated that Senator Murkowski has said he will begin
hearings on this issue as soon as we can present him with an
"Alaskan solution." SENATOR WARD noted this solution does not have
to be a constitutional amendment, and we don't have to buy into
that rhetoric. He concluded by saying he truly believes that if we
do not come up with an Alaskan solution, "the commercial fishing
industry as we know it in Alaska will be gone."
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said if the state does not surrender to the federal
mandate and comply with ANILCA, wouldn't we retain management of
fish and game on state and private lands, more than 150 million
acres. MR. BISHOP replied this is correct and the federal
government was authorized to manage for subsistence only on federal
lands, however, the rules recently proposed would extend this
authority to make regulations off federal lands if necessary to
protect the subsistence priority. MR. BISHOP said this authority,
if held up under review, would impinge on the authority of the
state.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR advised, "if the state surrenders its sovereignty,
complies with the federal law, amends its constitution, then we've
handed over all of the rest of the statehood lands and all of the
private lands in the state - we've handed those over to be
regulated under the federal standard and available to the federal
courts for oversight." So in fact, if we do not comply with the
Babbitt-Knowles plan we at least retain our rights on our state and
private lands, according to CHAIRMAN TAYLOR. MR. BISHOP said that
is correct, and that is a good additional comparison to make.
Number 278
MR. DONALD WESTLUND, testifying from Ketchikan, agreed with SENATOR
WARD, saying we should not give away any sovereign rights or we
risk becoming a territory again. MR. WESTLUND read a summary from
a document entitled "An Examination of Federal Authority to Manage
Fish and Game in Alaska". MR. WESTLUND concluded that the
Legislature should not pass a constitutional amendment regarding
subsistence on the basis of the argument that the state, as a
trustee, may not appropriate a trust asset to one class of citizens
to the exclusion of others.
Number 135
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MR. WESTLUND if he supports the lawsuit filed
by the Legislative Council. MR. WESTLUND indicated he does.
MR. PETE AMUNDSON testified from Ketchikan and urged the committee
not to compromise on the subsistence issue and create another
Washington D.C. in Alaska. MR. AMUNDSON informed the committee he
did not wish to be classed nor to be included in anything not
allowed by the State Constitution.
MS. KAY ANDREW agreed with the previous speaker and encouraged the
committee to enforce the position taken by Mr. Ralph Seekins
through support of the Legislative Council's lawsuit.
TAPE 98-38, SIDE A
Number 001
MR. ROB BOSWORTH, Deputy Commissioner of the Department of Fish and
Game (ADF&G), outlined problems the department sees with HB 406.
First, the bill will not avert a federal takeover. Second, HB 406
will not protect subsistence uses in Alaska, as the standard for a
non-subsistence economy requires a cash based economy, present in
many rural areas. For example, under this bill Bristol Bay and the
North Slope would not be considered subsistence areas. Third, MR.
BOSWORTH said HB 406 would be enormously costly and nearly
impossible for ADF&G to manage. MR. BOSWORTH concluded that the
concept of identifying users dependent on subsistence is attractive
but unworkable.
Number 100
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked MR. BOSWORTH how subsistence could be
structured without violating Alaska's Constitution. MR. BOSWORTH
replied that he is working with his fourth Governor on this issue
and there really is nothing new under the sun. He has concluded
that the rural distinction works.
Number 153
SENATOR WARD remarked that he has a problem with the zip code
approach which will take hunting and fishing rights from one half
of Alaska natives. MR. BOSWORTH responded that access would be
impaired only in times of shortage. SENATOR WARD stated that a
rural preference would still be unfair to people like him, around
whom Anchorage grew up; he suggested the Governor should instead
pursue the lawsuit filed by the Legislative Council.
Number 219
MR. BOSWORTH conceded that the rural preference plan is imperfect.
The plan is both over inclusive and under inclusive in regard to
people who should receive subsistence rights in times of shortage.
He maintained that the plan is the best compromise.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if there wasn't a third plan, allowing the
feds to take over federal lands and leaving state managers to
manage state and private lands. MR. BOSWORTH agreed this was
possible with some qualifications.
Number 347
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR cited some examples in which federal regulations
would supersede state management even if Alaska did change the
constitution. MR. BOSWORTH remarked that a state regional council,
much like the federal regional council, would be used under the
task force proposal. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR argued that any challenges to
the state board would be taken to a federal judge. MR. BOSWORTH
insisted that management by the state's expert biologists could be
supported in court and is preferable to management from outside.
Number 411
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR thanked MR. BOSWORTH for his help and invited his
further input on amending HB 406.
MR. STEVE WHITE, Assistant District Attorney for the Department of
Law, testified that the vast majority of subsistence challenges
stay in state court. MR. WHITE also observed that the amendments
proposed bring ANILCA closer to state law and in fact benefit
Alaska.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR expressed his concern for the sustainability of the
resource. MR. WHITE said that the state board is a multi-user board
and will be able to manage for multiple use. He feared the federal
government may not have the concern nor the resources to manage for
multiple use. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR interjected that the feds only have
the authority to manage for subsistence and MR. WHITE replied that
is true but this management will also affect other uses. CHAIRMAN
TAYLOR countered that if the last person up the stream attempting
to get at the resource is unsatisfied, they can go to federal court
and the court will regulate all other users in an attempt to
satisfy that one person. MR. WHITE concluded that he has confidence
in state management and fears federal management. CHAIRMAN TAYLOR
expressed his interest in working further on HB 406. He asked MR.
WHITE for his continued help.
TAPE 98-38, SIDE B
Number 001
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if there was anyone else wishing to testify
on HB 406. Hearing none, CHAIRMAN TAYLOR adjourned the meeting at
7:30 p.m.
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